Forming an argument for adding semi-auto shotguns, and balance of them

Devs have made it relatively clear that they're not in the semi-auto shotgun boat, as they think it will be unbalanced, even though it could be argued against that fairly easily or even balanced accordingly to suit it to the game without infringing on the innate concept of the shotguns themselves functioning as they should.

I'll be listing a few things that came to mind in terms of balance below, but if you have any ideas feel free to add them!

  • Recoil, yes this one is pretty obvious
  • Supply point cost
  • Ammo-type restriction
  • removing ability to have laser sight
  • Only having long variants with long stocks on them giving them the same issues as using other longer weapons in tight confined spaces
  • mode-restrict it, have it only for coop, or just exclude it from competitive

Bonus topic;

  • add serbu super-shorty shotgun to Breacher class as secondary option for 4 supply points, you'd be limited to 2+1 with it so it sort of balances itself out

I really want to see semi-auto shotguns added.

Another thing that could help with making them not OP is tweaking shotgun armor penetration. They should be poor at penetrating armor. Flechettes are dumb and not realistic, but if they're going to stay in the game they could be restricted to only the pump shotguns.

Semiauto shotguns should be an option, but they should be balanced so that they're not overbearing.

Maybe something like buffing the reload speed of the pump action, and having longer reloads for the semiauto.

I think the trick is to to let players pick between good overall sustained fire with pump or large bursts with longer pauses with a semi.

As long as the decision requires the player to pick between two things that are somewhat exclusive, balancing them (at least in coop) seems like a reasonable thing to do.

@jballou not sure reload speed would be realistic to have slower, maybe a little less velocity due to sifting off the gases to operate (but even that is a stretch considering wads not being really impacted by the gas needed to operate the mechanisms, and even a round like a breaching slug that's suuuuuuuuuper slowed down still has 1100ft/s / 335m/s and doesn't impact operation).

I'm still more in the camp of restricting attachments for them, as to not be allowed to tame recoil, have long-range optics for slugs and to not have slugs.. but in the end the best balancer for it will probably be supply cost.
Like being priced at 10 or 11 supply points, as it's a pretty default balancer limiting the other means because of that.

Well, this game is nowhere near realistic in a lot of ways, so while there isn't a difference in speed in real life, I think it could be a good way to balance the kit.

I don't think that having semiauto do less damage is good, nor would giving it less ammo.

There needs to be a benefit and a drawback, so benefit is that one can shoot a lot faster, drawback being the reload takes longer seems a good fit.

But I'm not married to the idea, simply saying that it's not a huge deal to balance the kit.

100% need a super short shotgun as a secondary.

I think a semi auto shotgun could work.. A full size shotgun but a short tube of sayyy 4+1 with a steep point cost.

last edited by Turyl

I would say for coop only.

Maybe even as a pick-up for TDM, maybe.

@jballou I'm still mostly in the camp of the balancing factor for semi-auto shotguns being very high supply cost

I never did play Insurgency: Modern Infantry Combat, but that game did have semi-automatic shotguns like the M1014. Not sure how balanced they were, though.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@mainfold - or we could just wait for it to hit the we did in insurgency.

@marksmanmax In the Insurgency Mod there was a pretty similar meta: both sides each had a single shotgun option, and both were semi-auto. So there still wasn't an issue balancing both semi-auto and pump shotguns.

@max80 workshop won't add new weapons, only skins..

@mainfold - how did the saiga get made in workshop for insurgency?

@max80 the insurgency saiga is not a shotgun, it's a rifle made by saiga, not a saiga 12 shotgun

And it's a skin for the SKS

last edited by Mainfold

@mainfold sure?

for the record Ide prefer it be left up to the workshop. And the saiga I used that was workshop made was done with an AK74u - not an, anyway it had full auto and semi-auto. It used shotgun rounds as well. Seems to me that is a bit more than a skin....Ide like to think there will be a lot more that can be done with this game than the source versions workshop limitations. I guess only time will tell, also there was a lot more than a saiga done in insurgency. Mini-gun was done at one point complete with rotating barrels, all kinds of lmgs, the list goes on and on.

last edited by Max80

@mainfold said in Forming an argument for adding semi-auto shotguns, and balance of them:


@mainfold - why are you linking this?

Edit - in hindsight you were probably for whatever reason though I can't imagine why you need to "prove" that an SKS shotgun exists. I had used it on a community server once. If its proof you seek on the ak74u shotgun or if you already know and dont care fine but its on the Sernix server. The minigun that was done at one point and other people from the Sernix community can confirm it, yes, someone did a minigun along with held shields that absorbed incoming damage. the rocket launcher AT4 was repurposed as a mortar launcher that lobbed c4 that had to travel X distance before it could detonate on impact, was great for outdoor use...Sinjar was a lot of fun. My point in all this is if people are driven enough they can create all kinds of stuff....not just skins on community theaters.

last edited by Max80

@max80 A custom server isn't necessarily running anything associated with the workshop. Overhaul mods are standalone usually and require custom servers too, hence having zero relevance to the topic at hand and thus irrelevant to the discussion.

@mainfold said in Forming an argument for adding semi-auto shotguns, and balance of them:

@max80 A custom server isn't necessarily running anything associated with the workshop. Overhaul mods are standalone usually and require custom servers too, hence having zero relevance to the topic at hand and thus irrelevant to the discussion.

@Mainfold - Irrelevant to the discussion? .... The workshop is the most important part of any discussion regarding weapons and maps. Why? I am sure you are wondering because you clearly cant see the value in it. The workshop is amazing in that it can bring content to the game that was otherwise not implemented by the devs. Sernix's theater was a huge hit for a long time and was put front page of insurgency servers for a while. Sandstorm has Suicide bombers...I wonder where that started? I have a hard time believing this particular type of weapon will not be put in the workshop. People probably want it in the game for pvp but I don't pvp so its not really a bother for me. I am ok with it showing up in co-op - steam workshops. Point being if it can make it to the workshop and find balance without the devs it can make it into the game. But what do I know...I am providing information with "zero relevance to the topic at hand and thus irrelevant to the discussion."......right? Sernix's full theater was available in the workshop. If we as a community can bring it to the game and find a good balance for the devs whats stopping them from taking what we do.....polishing it and implementing it?

You shouldnt be so dismissive. Talking down to people the way you do it displays arrogance and narcism...traits of some of the worst people in history.

last edited by Max80

@max80 The thread is about adding it to the base game, not about modding it in, otherwise the whole point of mentioning the devs in the topic would be a wasted effort.

Not mods.... the base game, by default accessible to everyone. Remember, this game is coming to console, they can't just mod in weapons and overhauls.

last edited by Mainfold