I had two games today against the same player where I handily beat his fleet but lost on caps as the opponent solely played the match to the cap points avoiding all engagements (which I can't blame him for at the end of the day even if he was pretty condescending at times. After playing and losing the second match to the same circumstances I threw in the towel for playing normally and did what he did to me against him and won in almost perfectly reversed circumstances with my fleet being destroyed but me winning on points. It was the least fun match I have played in the entire beta, possibly all the betas. The devs prefer not to share their original intentions in regards to design choices but I imagine this isn't how they intended the game to be played. I try not get salty on the forums like others have at times but the other testers and myself really made a point of bringing the issues with this system to the devs attention for the exact same reasons I experienced today.
I suggested line ship only capping last time and I don't think it is necessary anymore. you don't have to go all in on stealthed escorts/LCs to deal with this. it is imo enough to have some fast LCs/escorts of your own instead of using only BBs/GCs. I have an AM fleet with 2 Arks and one Tyrant that has enough escorts to easily hold three cap points. you go for three cap points that are easily defendable. MWJ gives you alot of mobility to support your escorts.
I think I'm with you on this as it encourages people to avoid fights. Which goes against the spirit of the game.
However using all LC fleets plays out the same way, I've been doing this with my Chaos Hellbringer spam fleet. I can boost and remain in stealth and if I blob them on a spot I take it very quickly.
Hold up, people actually playing the objective should be discouraged? And here I thought they were playing the game as it should be played
In all seriousness though. WHY should it not be an option, exactly? Because the only thing that I get out of this is 'I lost because he played the objective and I think that shouldnt be possible'
It incentivises totally avoiding fights.He used the threat and micro tax of carriers to make it so actually engaging essentially always results in a drawn out fight and a cap point victory for him even if you manage to wipe the fleet. This means 'conventional' play is an automatic lose. This isn't just me being salty about losing. I can fight this way too and when I did I beat him at his own game pretty handily. The issue is that it is incredibly unengaging and miserable to play and results in fuck all happening for most of the match as each side sits on their ass in their corner of the map and tries to snipe escorts. The system was implemented to prevent exploitative and engaging play in BFG1 that resulted from the asymmetrical faction design allowing one side to indefinitely disengage and win on the timer yet the way it has been done has it's own issues. This isn't just a case of 'git gud'. I have 4 loses of which 2 were these and 50 plus wins on IN in 1v1 in the beta so far. The issue isn't that I can't win it's that the design makes even winning miserable.
You are all still aware that map control is a major thing in strategy games right? That and actually killing ships gives you alot of points. If you manage to wipe out most of his fleet and still lose on points something very weird is going on, or you lost alot more ships then you are letting on.
The capture points dont incentivize avoiding fights at all. If anything it should cause players to come towards eachother as they are spread over the map. If you dont have the majority of capture points and kills you wont win on points.
Rarely 1 side will have a few more of the capture points close to his deployement zone then the other player but that alone is rarely a reason why you do or dont lose a match to points. At least in my experience.
It's not cap points in general which is fine, it's just escorts whose stealth and speed means they can't be contested by most line ships near the end of a match (For IN equivalents anyway.). No I did not lose more ships than I let on. Wiping the entire enemy fleet gives 1200 points, that's less than half the points required for victory in a 1v1.
As I start seeing more and more strong opponents, microing escorts to hide in corners, then go back and cap points, is becoming more and more common. I do it myself because it works and it's easier to do it myself than counter it. I don't think the game should just be about smashing blobs into each other like BFG1, but large numbers of escorts on each side backcapping each other is not very fun.
Making escorts unable to cap doesn't REALLY solve the cancerous playstyle of both sides avoiding fighting - people will just do the same strategy with LC fleets. The problem isn't escorts themselves, it's perma-invisibility. 100% uptime Running Silent encourages both sides to cap each other instead of defending (why hide 2 escorts near your own point on the off chance they send an escort to you instead of sending them to 2 enemy points?).
Bold idea: what if "running silent" were switched from a stance to a TEMPORARY order in the "emergency repairs / scan / call to arms" category? Say, 30 seconds (or whatever the duration of marked is) of complete invisibility. That would give you enough time to sneak between gas clouds as you approach (assuming more gas clouds get added, maps are way too open right now) or fake going for one point only to sneak off to a different one instead. Or you could juke enemies while running away while spotted. But you couldn't do both! Since ships on enemy points get revealed, this would make it very easy for defenders to either intercept incoming cappers or run them down if they used running silent to get to the point itself.
I think escorts not capping would be more important as the issue is that you can easily bring 4 or 5 escorts and a strong fleet so the enemy doesn't really have any loss of offensive power while playing purely to the points. One LC is the price of 3 or 4 escorts, if someone wants to bring enough of those to play to the caps then their main fleet loses strength.
Objectives provoke fights. If you hold 3 of 5 u win. 'U say u had no fight cause he had all objectives? with 3 ships you could have covered 3 objectives. But u would need to fight hus frigates. 'U just cant chase em. Is he faster ? Let him come to u. Are u faster? Make him chase u. It cats and mice.
@sahneyoghurt He was purely focused on sniping escorts so I couldn't contest the caps in the late game and line ships are too slow. As I have said here this is beatable, and I beat it. But it's miserable to play a match where no meaningful fights happen as committing your fleet to fighting the enemy one is essentially an auto loss. In the game I won I stopped paying attention at the end and let him wipe my fleet because I knew it didn't matter and it didn't, he couldn't contest my escorts with line ships and I had sniped his escorts and so he lost.
Way I see it. If you lost because your opponent sniped your escorts and he had more capture points he outplayed you. Simple as that.
Theres plenty of things you can do to counter it. Keep some ships in reserve. Keep an eye on the map and if you see something ninja capping sneak up and take HIS escorts out. Capture 3 points and sit on it. Fight around capture points, his if you need to and capture them ASAP.
Resource management and things like capture point has been in strategy games for a long while now. I dont see any need to take the ability to capture them away from escorts because of this.
Heck, if anything... Keep it! Thats right, keep it! Escorts FINALY have a use now. They were completly useless in the previous game and seeing a use for them now brings a bloody tear to my eye!