The "Always Better Option" (Drum Mag, Compensator) Needs Some Downsides.

(Yes I know they said in the patch notes that Drum Mags add more recoil) but since recoil is almost purely vertical in this game its far too easy to simply compensate for. Even the largest muzzle climb easily counter-able by the player when going full auto by simply pulling down on the mouse.

Since weight is apparently not even a factor (it's literally impossible to go over-weight for any class but Gunner)

And because players are given so many points to spend that they practically get to buy everything they want and STILL have pts left over for nades...

There need to be built in downsides to those attachments that people ALWAYS buy first.

Suggestions for possible downsides to Drum use:

  • Inability to have drum mag AND Bipod or Bipod/Foregrip installed on the same weapon. The drum mag would realistically get in the way, because it greatly increases the height of the weapon. (This also would give greater importance to the Machinegunner class, by making it irreplaceable in that role)

  • Inability to have both Drum Mag and Fore grip installed on certain (shorter) weapons, due to the awkward angle that forces a persons arm to hold the gun at, because they have to get their fore-arm around the drum to grab the grip. Or at the bare minimum, reduce the effect of the fore grip on such setups.

  • Increased horizontal recoil. Adding more horizontal recoil would GREATLY increase the difficulty of and viability of always just going full auto.

  • Greatly Increase the weight of the Drum Mag, and have heavier guns take longer to ADS (because you're basically lifting a much heavier object up to your eyes each time...its unrealistic for it to be as fast a motion as ADS on say...a pistol. (Currently Extended Mags and Drum Mags have ZERO added weight..this is ridiculous)

  • Possibly introduce the chance of jamming on Drum Mags (explained below)

The reason Extended mags and especially drum mags (of all designs) are often not used in real life is because of their extremely elevated chance of jamming... mainly because the springs have to push much greater mass while the weapon cycles. The rounds that don't get pushed up fast enough get caught.

Users who own drum magazines for personal use often will only load them to 75% capacity to reduce the chance of jamming.

Also, there's the fact that the age (or wear) of a weapon is measured not by years, but by number of rounds fired.
That’s the main reason machine guns are weapons purposely made for reliability during sustained fire (meaning that machine guns are NOT just assault rifles ‘simply modified’ to fire ammo belts or drums).

Basically, machine guns trade accuracy for sustained fire, meaning that assault rifles are more accurate than machine guns , but every single bullet you fire makes them age FASTER than machine guns do.

Suggestions for possible downsides to Compensator use:

  • Increased first-shot recoil. This is used to great effect in other games. Since the compensator is designed to counter muzzle climb, the way to balance it is to make the first shot kick much more than if it weren't installed. A compensator (a device that reduces muzzle climb by generally redirecting gasses up) shouldn't work like a Muzzle Brake (a device that reduces kickback strength by redirecting gasses backwards)
last edited by AMURKA

Another option is to simply have other alternatives that are mutually exclusive.

  • If ADS time is reduced across the board (like it should be...especially for people just finishing a sprint or not using a bipod)
    and then other grip options (horizontal grip?) were added to the game that reduced ADS time, players would then have to CHOOSE between quicker ADS or reducing recoil with the compensator.

  • Also, there should be a difference in ADS time depending on the scopes zoom. 1x sights should be very quick (there's a reason they're sometimes known as "reflex" sights, but 2x up should have increasing ADS times, where the player needs to "Find the sweet spot (center) of the optics and then focus the eye that is looking through it"

last edited by AMURKA

Agreed on the general principle that extended/drum mags should not just be a straight upgrade.

I don't think that weapon jamming fits into the game and while drum mags can jam, this is usually the case when using poor magazines/ammo. Drum mags are often used in competitive shooting, because they can save you a lot of time on the clock since you can save one reload or you don't have to reload at all.

The bigger issue is one that people often forget. They are big and don't fit into your carrier which is most likely made to fit normal mags.

Maybe this could be reflected by only having one extended magazine in the game. Apart from that it should increase ADS times and should increase vertical recoil.

Yea I wasn't so sure about the jamming either, even though it is a non-minimal concern for drum mags IRL, I'm not sure it's a good fit. It's not good to add things that are basically RNG to a game, that the player has no control over. But I was just listing ideas as they came to me.

Any ideas that you can think of that I may have missed?

last edited by AMURKA

Following the idea that drum mags are very difficult to fit to a carrier, maybe have it so you can carry about half of the default ammunition amount total? Like a max of 3 spare mags on a heavy carrier?
This way a basic rifleman can't take away from the role of the gunner and gets the benefit of having to worry less about his magazine capacity in prolonged firefights.

I do very much like the idea of increased ADS with increasing weapon/magazine weight AND scope magnification.

@ryuk47 said in The "Always Better Option" (Drum Mag, Compensator) Needs Some Downsides.:

I do very much like the idea of increased ADS with increasing weapon/magazine weight AND scope magnification.

So do I, my do I...

I respect your opinion but I disagree. I'm assuming this is directed at pvp balance? I'm cool with that if it's so, but when you play coop you need the drum mags because youre going against what seems to be like 20 bots all at once. I like muh drum mags. Imo I think they're fine where they are for coop

@lucjocwhite Well I'm not saying get rid of em, just to balance them a bit. And you get more points in Coop too so it's not like any of these changes would take away you having drum mags...

@amurka Yeah you're right. Fare enough

@amurka But I mean, I wouldn't want those suggestions you made added into coop tbh. I'm cool with how drum mags work now, I don't think they need balance in coop lol no one cares too much about balance in coop. From my experience, coop is where people just have fun and no seems to be trying to compete and be like a pro-league player. Coop is the fun "kill stuff with your friends" mode

I play almost exclusively Coop...and did in the old Ins as well. I care about balance in Coop. Just because you don't doesn't mean "No one does".

In fact, I'd argue that the greater the challenge (either through pt restriction or weapon balance) the greater the sense of accomplishment for beating a level (rather than ALWAYS expecting to win every single time).

I can't wait until hardcore/elite mode is added. (and hopefully night missions)

last edited by AMURKA

I mostly agree with the OP. I find it odd that the carried weight doesn't increase over ordinary mags. They could even add additional movement sound (noise -> detection) to drum mag carriers.
I'm not sure though if a drum mag would actually hinder you at using a foregrip?

@feuerholz said in The "Always Better Option" (Drum Mag, Compensator) Needs Some Downsides.:

I mostly agree with the OP. I find it odd that the carried weight doesn't increase over ordinary mags.
I'm not sure though if a drum mag would actually hinder you at using a foregrip?

I mostly agree with myself too 😛 and yea the jamming and the foregrip obstruction prolly aren't great for the game.

Haven't tried drum magazines in sandstorm yet, but in ins 2014 the drum magazines were balanced by high supply cost and reload times roughly two or so seconds longer than the box magazines. AFAIK you only had this choice on the galil as well so your weapon choice was also limited. I assume NWI is keeping to this for the most part when the game releases (at least for pvp) as I haven't heard criticism concerning how they handled drum magazines in ins 2014

last edited by Lambda Unit

Drum magazines are certainly in an OP role right now, but have thankfully been reduced to COOP only.

Personally, I'd prefer to see drum magazines get a weight cost to them, and also get the "Gunner" treatment that the LMGs get in terms of ammunition. (Ammo works with a 2 mags + 1 loaded system +2 for every carrier upgrade. LMGs have their spare mag count halved)

Ultimately, I'd rather see gunner receive an RPK(INS) and an M27 (SEC) with options for extended and drum mags to give the class an alternative to the PKM and M249.

In regards to extended mags, I don't think anyone will be upset if they disappear. On average they only add five additional rounds. Sure, if you have perfect aim that's another five kills, but if you've somehow pulled 30 kills off one mag, you're John motherfucking Wick and the enemy team is waiting for their next wave anyways.

But in all seriousness, pretty much every 35 round mag is an aftermarket thing. The only guns that REALLY gets bonuses off extended mags are the SKS and pistols, and nobody really has a problem with either since they either do low damage, or are already handicapped functionally in some way.

If a 35 round gun was really wanted badly though, there is an option!
There's a specific fan-favorite Israeli AR from the 80s that uses 35 round mags by default, if you get my reference... wink,wink

That aside, the cost of vital attachments (Foregrip, Compensator) are already pretty high, making weapons like the AK-74 and M4 10 and 11 point weapons, respectively. That doesn't leave a whole lot of wiggle room for other pieces of gear.

Though I definitely agree with the ADS idea, increased weight and the bipod on some weapons, I disagree that LMGs should have less accuracy than a rifle. In reality, MGs have longer barrels and thus give more "spin" on the bullets making them more accurate. Not to mention the weight of the MGs makes them have less recoil given they share the same ammunition. Per single shot basis, they should actually have better accuracy and recoil. However, due to their weight, they are difficult to aim with, which in-game could be represented as the increased ADS time as you've mentioned and more weapon sway than a regular rifle, making them difficult to run and gun with. The swaying could also be implemented for extended mags as well, since it gives them more weight on the weapon, and I also like the idea that you'd carry less drum mags than the standard.

Edit: Also forgot to mention, to simulate the overheating of MGs that unfortunately, a mechanic that Insurgency doesn't have for (not the mounted ones), perhaps the accuracy could decrease in sustained fire, after about 5 shots? Just to encourage bursting a few rounds rather than flat out sustained fire. But sustained fire is an option if needed, compromising accuracy.

last edited by io543

All sounds good to me! I just hope they make the changes we're looking for before they release the game. It's one thing to balance before release, but if you do it after you always get loads of people whining that "It was just fine the way it waaaaas." and a small but vocal minority of players blowing up the forums with lots of heated talk (similar to whats been going on around here for TTK)

At least in this game all the gun attachments are free and available to everyone, so no one can say "But I used points to unlock that!"

last edited by AMURKA

Imo, the Compensator isn't that useful.

If you're a big Ins2014 vet, you probably (maybe) crouch while firing, since crouching in Ins2 gave you more of a stable shot. However, in Sandstorm, not only do you have less sway, but you also have about half the recoil you normally would have.

This makes compensators and foregrips pretty useless since you can just crouch:

Some compensators don't seem to work for some weapons, for example, G36, it has the exact same high recoil with or without compensator.

Please do not increase the horizontal recoil in this game. It's already too much. RNG recoil is poor game design and should be left in easy shooters like Call of Duty.

Also, a small chance of jamming would destroy drum mags. I would never touch something that could decide to kill me through pure bad luck.

last edited by cyoce