Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?

Question for devs or anyone else I suppose... has anyone had any luck digging around in the pak files and found where the costs for Hard Mode are defined?

Fuel seems about right probably, but for my tastes, I'd like to crank up the cost of repair points. Coupled with the relatively minor amounts of damage that occur in the game unless you literally throw your trucks into walls at top speed, it seems like repairs are barely going to register in the grand scheme.

For the sake of reasonable balance, I get that it wouldn't be to everyone's taste, so it seems to me it'd be better if we can tweak the values ourselves.

If it is hard-coded... devs, any chance you can expose those values somehow?

Ideally, I think it'd be best when starting a new Hardmode save, to be given an options screen that let you set a bunch of multipliers, so you can either just leave it all at default 1.0x costs, or ramp them up as you like, without needing to install a mod.

Hello,

I would also appreciate if values could be changed so that everyone can create his own hard-mode. I am pretty sure, not everyone will be happy with the current values.

Here is the list from the known changes in hard-mode and some ideas how user-settings could look like.

  • Disabled ability to sell trailers (utilize only)
    -> Disable selling, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% sell value

  • Disabled "Skip Time" option
    -> Disabled, Disabled but double-speed running night-time, enabled

  • Selling trucks for 50% of their cost
    -> 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% sell value

  • Paid vehicle recovery

  • Paid vehicle deploy

  • Paid repair in the garage

  • Paid auto cargo loading

  • Paid refuel on refuel stations
    -> Disabled, 0.5x, 1.0x, 1.5x, 2.0x factor of costs (of course, seperate for each of above)

  • Implemented search areas for objective on a minimap instead of direct markers
    -> Enabled, Disabled

  • Contests become unavailable after 3rd attempt
    -> Disabled, 3 attempts, 5 attempts, 7 attempts

(Please apologize my English)

A customisable hard mode would be much appreciated. While I do like many of the modifiers I don't see myself sinking hours and hours into a playthrough that might just unceremoniously peter out just because there are no repeatable tasks and I run out of money because I had some bad luck or took a risk by not using the same reliable trucks for every task. As it is hard mode takes too much game out of the game for my taste.

@Darmtier said in Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?:

I would also appreciate if values could be changed so that everyone can create his own hard-mode. I am pretty sure, not everyone will be happy with the current values.
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I understand the desire for a fully-configurable hard-mode, but that's not really what I'm suggesting, and I don't think there's much point to even implementing the mode if they're going to give everyone optional opt-outs from it.

I think Hard Mode should be Hard Mode, at a minimum - with the options you suggest, you can effectively play Hard Mode with Hard Mode turned off... it's a challenge - what's the point of saying "challenge accepted, but can we make the challenge easier?"

What I'm suggesting is sliders with the currently tested values at the minimum end... so you can either play Hard Mode, or you can play Harder Mode, if you want the added challenge (with the ability to absolutely make the game unwinnable if you get carried away).

I truly believe the values they've come up with on the testing server are entirely playable, and even potentially a bit on the conservative side. I just don't see much point playing a Hard Mode if you don't want things to be at least somewhat Hard - why second-guess the developers balancing and neuter the whole experience before you even start?

@grimdanfango I think @Darmtier's point wasn't to implement a hard mode that you could just manually "un-hardmode" but to have the option to turn on hard mode modifiers on normal or maybe on a third mode, let's call it "custom mode", since the full hard mode package might not be everybody's cup of tea while they might enjoy some of the modifiers to some degree.
Personally, I like manual loading, no time-skipping, manual recovery instead of automated one and stuff like that, but I would never play hard mode because of the whole issue with finite potential earnings but potentially infinite cost incurred on every map due to running cost and no repeatable tasks. That way I would always need two concurrent playthroughs, because the faffing around I do for fun isn't feasible on hard mode.

@Shizanketsuga said in Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?:

@grimdanfango I think @Darmtier's point wasn't to implement a hard mode that you could just manually "un-hardmode" but to have the option to turn on hard mode modifiers on normal or maybe on a third mode, let's call it "custom mode", since the full hard mode package might not be everybody's cup of tea while they might enjoy some of the modifiers to some degree.
Personally, I like manual loading, no time-skipping, manual recovery instead of automated one and stuff like that, but I would never play hard mode because of the whole issue with finite potential earnings but potentially infinite cost incurred on every map due to running cost and no repeatable tasks. That way I would always need two concurrent playthroughs, because the faffing around I do for fun isn't feasible on hard mode.

Fair point, it would be absolutely reasonable to provide a "custom difficulty" mode alongside "official" Hard Mode. Then the official baseline challenge is preserved, and the custom mode would cater to all our needs (including my need for higher costs :-P)

@grimdanfango i do unterstand your point and arguments completely. My idea would be, to implement 3 modes as @Shizanketsuga pointed out. The current mode we have, the hard mode as intendent by the developers and a custom mode inbetween (or beyond hard mode as you wanted :)).

I am very worried about the financial part of the game if it will be well balanced. I don't think the game was designed for, as @Shizanketsuga said, infinite costs but finite income. For me it is fine if there will be only a hard mode with fixed settings. But I won't jump in after release because I am pretty sure it will need some patches and more experience as from PTS to get the income and costs in a balance to guarantee fun and challenge.

So let’s not nerf hard-mode, but instead create a fully customizable hard-mode? What? If customizable options are made available, what would be the point? This is another way of requesting a dumbed down hard mode. No, they are going about it in exactly the right way. The developers should be the ones setting the rules for the mode, not the player. It is up to us to overcome the challenges they provide. I get some games having difficulty levels to cater to a diverse player base, but that isn’t snowrunner. Making changes like that dumbs the experience.

The base game caters enough to the casual player. Let the hardcore guys have the hardcore experience without being given a bunch of crazy optional settings to think about. Two modes: base and hardcore. The developers have the right idea as is.

@secelit3 It would be nice if you could at least try and make a logical argument instead of talking in speech bubbles. How exactly would hard mode be "dumbed down" if there was an additional custom mode and nothing changed about hard mode?

And to answer your question what the point would be: there are players who like many of the hard mode changes but the ones they do not like are dealbreakers as I have explained above. In my ethical framework it is good if more people are happy. A custom mode would make more people happy while not taking anything away from those who do not want that. Therefore, a custom mode is good.

@Shizanketsuga said in Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?:

@secelit3 It would be nice if you could at least try and make a logical argument instead of talking in speech bubbles. How exactly would hard mode be "dumbed down" if there was an additional custom mode and nothing changed about hard mode?

And to answer your question what the point would be: there are players who like many of the hard mode changes but the ones they do not like are dealbreakers as I have explained above. In my ethical framework it is good if more people are happy. A custom mode would make more people happy while not taking anything away from those who do not want that. Therefore, a custom mode is good.

My stance is logical, precise, and to the point. There is no custom normal mode, so why should there be a custom hard mode? The answer is simple. To play hard mode, but be provided with the ability to essentially nerf the game to reduce difficulty. I don’t how much better I have to explain it.

Many of us have been waiting for hard mode for a very long time. We want it to be as difficult as the developers can make it without options to nerf it. If casuals want options, those should be implemented into normal mode. Hard mode should be left out of the discussion

@secelit3 said in Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?:

My stance is logical, precise, and to the point. There is no custom normal mode, so why should there be a custom hard mode? The answer is simple. To play hard mode, but be provided with the ability to essentially nerf the game to reduce difficulty. I don’t how much better I have to explain it.

Many of us have been waiting for hard mode for a very long time. We want it to be as difficult as the developers can make it without options to nerf it. If casuals want options, those should be implemented into normal mode. Hard mode should be left out of the discussion

That's the point being made though - keep Hard Mode as it is intended and add an additional custom mode for anyone who wants a half-way-house.
Hard Mode is then "left out of the discussion", and if anything, would mean they could be even less conservative with the full-featured Hard Mode, and not be afraid to make it even a little harder.

last edited by grimdanfango

@Darmtier said in Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?:

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I am very worried about the financial part of the game if it will be well balanced. I don't think the game was designed for, as @Shizanketsuga said, infinite costs but finite income.
...

I wouldn't get too hung up on this idea of "infinite costs but finite income". The costs are finite simply because the missions are also finite, and so the time you take to complete a region is finite.
That is unless you plan to spend an "infinite" amount of extra time after beating a region just swanning around admiring the trees. Nothing wrong with that, but that form of gameplay has nothing to do with beating a challenge any more, so is obviously better left to non-Hard-Mode anyway.

@secelit3 said in Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?:

@Shizanketsuga said in Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?:

@secelit3 It would be nice if you could at least try and make a logical argument instead of talking in speech bubbles. How exactly would hard mode be "dumbed down" if there was an additional custom mode and nothing changed about hard mode?

And to answer your question what the point would be: there are players who like many of the hard mode changes but the ones they do not like are dealbreakers as I have explained above. In my ethical framework it is good if more people are happy. A custom mode would make more people happy while not taking anything away from those who do not want that. Therefore, a custom mode is good.

My stance is logical, precise, and to the point. There is no custom normal mode, so why should there be a custom hard mode? The answer is simple. To play hard mode, but be provided with the ability to essentially nerf the game to reduce difficulty. I don’t how much better I have to explain it.

Many of us have been waiting for hard mode for a very long time. We want it to be as difficult as the developers can make it without options to nerf it. If casuals want options, those should be implemented into normal mode. Hard mode should be left out of the discussion

That sounds like you haven't been paying attention. Nobody is talking about either a "custom hard mode" or a "custom normal mode", just about a customisable mode in addition to hard mode where you can adjust your difficulty settings to your individual liking. If they don't make a separate mode out of it but just integrate those switchable options into normal mode that's absolutely fine. I repeat: that's absolutely fine.
So, your complaint is completely besides the point. You are basically agreeing with the people making the suggestion while calling them "casuals" for it and acting as if anybody was coming after your beloved hard mode which, ironically, I even explicitly denied in the text you quoted.

Nobody is trying to take away your hard mode with fixed difficulty settings. Play it as much as you like.

If you think people want it to be called "custom hard mode" just so they can say they play hard mode only to dial it down to normal difficulty again that's called projection. And that's a fallacy, i.e. not rational. People who want that customisable mode have no reason to give a flip about what the mode is called. It's the options they are interested in.

@grimdanfango said in Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?:

@Darmtier said in Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?:

...
I am very worried about the financial part of the game if it will be well balanced. I don't think the game was designed for, as @Shizanketsuga said, infinite costs but finite income.
...

I wouldn't get too hung up on this idea of "infinite costs but finite income". The costs are finite simply because the missions are also finite, and so the time you take to complete a region is finite.
That is unless you plan to spend an "infinite" amount of extra time after beating a region just swanning around admiring the trees. Nothing wrong with that, but that form of gameplay has nothing to do with beating a challenge any more, so is obviously better left to non-Hard-Mode anyway.

Agreed. While some tasks will probably not be profitable with current payouts most tasks will still turn a profit, so that's only an issue if you regularly goof around by, say, yeeting your trucks over a cliff for the heck of it, doing some optional exploration or trying out "less than optimal" trucks for a given task.
Personally, I like that kind of fun too much and don't have the time for two parallel playthroughs, so for me the infinite cost versus finite earnings problem very much applies, but that might not be the case for someone who derives a larger part of their fun from optimal route planning and stuff like that.
Consequently, I will stay in normal mode and hope for difficulty customisation being added some day.

@Shizanketsuga said in Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?:

Agreed. While some tasks will probably not be profitable with current payouts most tasks will still turn a profit, so that's only an issue if you regularly goof around by, say, yeeting your trucks over a cliff for the heck of it, doing some optional exploration or trying out "less than optimal" trucks for a given task.
Personally, I like that kind of fun too much and don't have the time for two parallel playthroughs, so for me the infinite cost versus finite earnings problem very much applies, but that might not be the case for someone who derives a larger part of their fun from optimal route planning and stuff like that.
Consequently, I will stay in normal mode and hope for difficulty customisation being added some day.

Indeed, goofing around, while a fun thing to do, is clearly beyond the remit of hard-mode, and is definitively what the base game, consequence-free sandbox is set up to enable already.

I suppose for people who are reluctant for whatever reasons to run two different saves in parallel (understandable given limited time to pour into a game like this), it might be nice if they offered a way to back-port a Hardmode save file into standard game mode (Should probably be a one-way thing if it was created - copy a hard-mode save into default mode if you want to mess around or test things out, etc... but not port a standard save into hard-mode).

On the profitability topic, I think you may still be underestimating the profitability of even the low-end ~$1k payouts in the early game... a lot of those are tasks you can complete with a scout, or a short trip with a basic truck, and you'd have to sink 500L of fuel on a task to burn through $1k and render it a net-loss. That's a lot of refills of a Chevy CK1500... 6.25 full tanks to be precise. Can't think it'd take that much effort to climb a hill, even if you roll a couple times and have to send in a second scout to winch yourself out.

@grimdanfango said in Hard Mode - can values be modded, or are they hard-coded?:

I suppose for people who are reluctant for whatever reasons to run two different saves in parallel (understandable given limited time to pour into a game like this), it might be nice if they offered a way to back-port a Hardmode save file into standard game mode (Should probably be a one-way thing if it was created - copy a hard-mode save into default mode if you want to mess around or test things out, etc... but not port a standard save into hard-mode).

That would actually be a really interesting solution for people like me who would actually appreciate the challenge but don't want to miss out on the more light-hearted fun. I guess it will be possible to fudge something to that effect with the save files if you play on pc, but an official solution would be preferable if only for console players' sake.

On the profitability topic, I think you may still be underestimating the profitability of even the low-end ~$1k payouts in the early game... a lot of those are tasks you can complete with a scout, or a short trip with a basic truck, and you'd have to sink 500L of fuel on a task to burn through $1k and render it a net-loss. That's a lot of refills of a Chevy CK1500... 6.25 full tanks to be precise. Can't think it'd take that much effort to climb a hill, even if you roll a couple times and have to send in a second scout to winch yourself out.

Oh, I am certainly not thinking of the early missions. While earnings are a bit slim for those easy beginner missions I would still consider them quite safe. No, the tasks I am thinking of start much later, probably after the base game maps. (It's been a while.) I am thinking of those tasks that have a disappointing payout even when you just consider the time spent on crawling in slow motion through deep mud and/or snow with one or two thirsty Heavies. And I am not only thinking of fuel cost but also the very random damage you accrue by driving in the general vicinity of a pepple on the road, trailers that you have to buy for just one or two tasks in that region and deployment cost for a truck that you would not use otherwise on that map but need for a required frame addon etc. These things can easily add up if you don't know ahead of time what to expect on a given map and plan accordingly (or if you have angered the pebble gods).
Sometimes there is about as much correlation between the necessary effort to complete a task and its payout as there is between the usefulness of certain trucks and their price, i.e. very, very little, so there are certainly tasks I would rather skip if my finances aren't looking exceptionally well.

well, i liked Second wave options (adjustable HM) for Xcom, but i prefered set rules in Jagged alliance2 Wildfire over adjustable v1.13

as for discussion here - yes or no for adjustable HM - i dont know. If i had a time machine - i would jump for 2 years and statred polished nonadjustable HM, IF devs were polishing it diring these years according to HM fans, not discord kids.
But now we just don’t know - is it playable or not? is it hard enough or not. And we witnessed a lot of critical failures made by devs this year, so...

Right know i would prefer the safe side - adjustable HM.