Suggestion : Replace the red laser by green laser + add laser beam in smoky / foggy conditions

I would like to propose a rework of the lasers we have in Sandstorm.

The little red point which is projected by the laser attachment on weapons is not corresponding to the real looks of a laser point in reality.
The red point is not really easy to see ( which it should be ) especially in close combat situations within buildings.
The red point should be much brighter especially when the backround is not black.

Also the laser beam is not existant in Sandstorm.
But it should be visible in foggy/smoky situations ( many dust particles in the air which reflect the laser and make the beam visible )
When you have a look on these pictures below you should understand what i mean :
0_1551612575507_Weapons-Red-laser.jpg 0_1551612726141_Soldier_Aiming_with_Laser_Light_Module_MOD_45155932_compressed.jpg
0_1551612749623_mp5.jpg
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By the way, green lasers are better visible by the human eye and therefore more common in military and police units and thats the main reason why it also should be integrated to Sandstorm and replace the red laser.
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0_1551612913464_Dual-Beam-Aiming-Lasers-1-770x300.png
0_1551613736341_weapon lasers.jpg
Even in bright light you still can see the green laser beam
0_1551613148973_pistol laser.jpg

Better visible lasers not only would raise the realism but also would add some tactical useage :

  • As a coop player you can see which area is actually covered by teammates and this would help to reposition yourself and your own defense direction.
  • In versus games you would be forced to turn the laser on/off depending on situation to not give away your own position which makes the use of lasers more challenging.

What do you guys think about it ?

last edited by GSG_9_LIGHTNING

would be nice to have red for insurgents, green for security.

It would be awesome for beams to be visible in smoke for sure. But the beams shouldn't be visible all the time, there needs to be some decent particles in the air for them to be visible. And even when beams are visible in real life, it's very rarely the whole beam, instead you'll get just a few parts of it. A lot of those images are from movies or promos, where the beams have been made intentionally visible (or even CGed) to make it look cooler. That's not really representative of real life.

I've not found green lasers to be super common in real life. The PEQ-15, which is the only identifiable laser device in the game, uses a red laser.

@maa_bunny said in Suggestion : Replace the red laser by green laser + add laser beam in smoky / foggy conditions:

It would be awesome for beams to be visible in smoke for sure. But the beams shouldn't be visible all the time, there needs to be some decent particles in the air for them to be visible. And even when beams are visible in real life, it's very rarely the whole beam, instead you'll get just a few parts of it.

I absolutely meant it the same way as you wrote, nothing else.
But as we pemanently have smoke artillery, smoke grenades, flashbangs, explosive artillery, Frag grenade explosions, RPG explosions in the game there is permanently an extreme amount of dust / smoke particles in the air and therefore the laser beam should be visible most of the time.

A lot of those images are from movies or promos, where the beams have been made intentionally visible (or even CGed) to make it look cooler. That's not really representative of real life.
I've not found green lasers to be super common in real life. The PEQ-15, which is the only identifiable laser device in the game, uses a red laser.

You might be right, some of these pictures may be from movies or advertisement ( especially those with smoke in backround ) but the way a laser works is not different ( movie or not ) !
Just simple physics/optics and logic.
I donยดt know your personel military/police history or experiences, all i can say is that i have experience about these kind of attachments on weapons and i can assure you that green lasers are very common !
Any military or police unit which is allowed to use lasers attachments on their weapons by law, does use green lasers nower days. They replace the red ones because the green ones offer a much better visibility in comparison to red lasers. Especially the green laserpoint itself ( not only the beam ) is much brighter and reflective and easier for eyes to follow on different surfaces, materials, objects and persons.

By the way, the moment you fire a projectile out of a weapon barrel there are hot gases/smoke particles leaving the barrel producing a lot of reflective surface for laser beams to get visible 1 - 2 meters in front of you. Even that little part of the beam might be helpfull ( visually ) for teammates to localize the threat and also the direction of his cover faster.
Situational awareness is the key to succes !
Operators always rely on eyes and ears in such threatening situations and combat drills help them to survive.
But right now I am not discussing the reasons why lasers are used in close combat situations.

My focus is on the visibility of the laser dot. It could be brighter and better when using a green one.
Additional a visible laser beam would be awsome !

last edited by GSG_9_LIGHTNING

Hey!
Thanks for the feedback, it's been forwarded to the dev team ๐Ÿ™‚

I think having the choice for green or red would be nice. Of course showing the beams would be great as well. What I really need to see is an adjustable size or intensity to the dot on target. In it's current state, it is a next to useless feature for me and is easily lost even in CQB.

Yeah i agree.
The best laser attachment solution is in the game Ground Branch where you can see the laser beam partially which looks very natural.
Also the laser dot itself is much brighter and not exactly in the middle of the optical sight on top of the weapon
The closer you get to a wall the more the laser dot has space to the middle of the optics
( There must only be one distance ( zeroed ) where the laser dot is exactly in the middle of the optics, thats the rule of light/optics/physics ) :
1_1554409839552_20190404220819_1.jpg 0_1554409839552_20190404220812_1.jpg
1_1554409880417_20190404222352_1.jpg 0_1554409880417_20190404220748_1.jpg

We need this in Sandstorm , but please a green and bright laser beam and dot !!

last edited by GSG_9_LIGHTNING

And the best thing in Ground Branch is that you can even mount 3 laser attachments on a weapon with 3 picatinny rails on it:
2_1554410112547_20190404222116_1.jpg 1_1554410112547_20190404220849_1.jpg 0_1554410112547_20190404220845_1.jpg

last edited by GSG_9_LIGHTNING

@gsg_9_lightning I fully support this. It will make night maps with heavy particles in the air or just smoke even....VERY entertaining.

@max80 said in Suggestion : Replace the red laser by green laser + add laser beam in smoky / foggy conditions:

@gsg_9_lightning I fully support this. It will make night maps with heavy particles in the air or just smoke even....VERY entertaining.

Hey, GSG9... while i agree this would be amazing, i feel the need to clarify... most simple laser-sights are not -"visible-beam" lasers, that do not appear as a beam at all, and they simply project the strike-surface with the end-result red dot mark.

Visible-beam lasers are "special" and have a different nm paramter, for eg. the visible-beam green laser is 63nm, and i have 2 of them with an MP5A4-RIS-SD with interchangeable long-barrel and bipod

i also have a "standard" laser, and this is a good laser for stealth, because it will not "beam" and hiding the strike-point is easier to maintain.

What i would suggest for Visible-Beam lasers is to make them InfraRed, so that they are invisible without IRNV.

beams everywhere would be hella-cool for a couple months, then the laser spam would just be completely irritating, and change the META, tbh.

@reason3d - good to know, you learn something new every day. ๐Ÿ™‚

@gsg_9_lightning said in Suggestion : Replace the red laser by green laser + add laser beam in smoky / foggy conditions:

And the best thing in Ground Branch is that you can even mount 3 laser attachments on a weapon with 3 picatinny rails on it:

Just revised the topic, taking notice of all images, would be sweet if you could get the SplinterCell icon tri-dot with the PEQ on the top rail, though i know LoS issues arise... good input though, very interesting.

If JellyFoosh Community Manager is forwarding this to the team, the time spent modifying any/all configurations might be better spent by a modder with the intention of implementing the different configurations, etc... but the framework to modify them would be great if the dev's can supply that material, either in a patch (UE4 is free, anyone can use it, and it should compile and run, if all goes well.) or in the SDK/Editor release. IMHO

last edited by Reason3D

@Reason3D

i feel the need to clarify... most simple laser-sights are not -"visible-beam" lasers, that do not appear as a beam at all, and they simply project the strike-surface with the end-result red dot mark.

Visible-beam lasers are "special" and have a different nm paramter, for eg. the visible-beam green laser is 63nm, and i have 2 of them with an MP5A4-RIS-SD with interchangeable long-barrel and bipod

i also have a "standard" laser, and this is a good laser for stealth, because it will not "beam" and hiding the strike-point is easier to maintain.

What i would suggest for Visible-Beam lasers is to make them InfraRed, so that they are invisible without IRNV.

beams everywhere would be hella-cool for a couple months, then the laser spam would just be completely irritating, and change the META, tbh.

Sorry but i disagree here :
A "normal" laser also produces a classic laser beam as particles in the air ( dust / smoke / hot gasses with low density smoke from burnt powder leaving the barrel ) collide with a laser and make the parallel laser light visible. Red / green / blue laser, doesnยดt matter which one, all of them have a visible laser beam as long as there are particles in the air.
If you had read my post carefully you would have noticed that i already mentioned that "particles in the air " point and you also should know that i have a professional backround in working with laser attachments on weapons ๐Ÿ˜‰
Dust and smoke particles are very very often surrounding players in Insurgency Sandstorm ( explosions , artillery / mortar strikes, smoke grenades / etc. )

Green lasers are 4 times better visible to the human eye than red ones, therefore being used in newer variants of modern laser attachments for weapons ( using new green laser diods instead of just converting the red laser into green laser light - resulting in brighter green light and lower power consumption at same dimensions )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser

Look at the screenshots from the game Ground Branch in my last post above in this thread and think about it.
This game ( still in beta ) perfectly integrated the laser beam and laser dot already.

Infrared lasers are cool too but worthless in daylight in CQB situations. NVGยดs would burn through in daylight.
So my primary wish would be to have a good visible green and bright laser dot ( and may be , if possible a laser beam like in Ground Branch too )

Lasers in PvP always give away your position therefore i would not recomment to use it unless your in a firefight in buildings where you hipfire your weapon more often because of the short combat distances.
As i play only COOP missions in Sandstorm i would love to have the laserbeams of my teammates visible as it is easier to see which sector is covered and reposition my own cover direction.

last edited by GSG_9_LIGHTNING

I capitulate the argument aghainst: "Particular Discretional Appearance of Laser Beam"

While you are correct bout the particles, in my experience in INS (which is about 25-40 hours) i have not encountered many situations where the particle reflections would be advantageous... ๐Ÿ˜ž I do NOT pay COOP)

In honesty, the most powerfully visible lasers are the green, because, while we are educated that ROYGBIV, is the correct sequence, the Human Brain interprets: VIBGYOR.. .

In essence, since Green is in the Center of the Perceived Color Spectrum and Human Eye's Interpret this as the most compatible color for physiological adherence, then, yes Green is the best solution.

Red is used in many situations, as well.

My point was, the "Standard" Laser, available to even civilians, has the tendency to not project a Beam, but you are Correct: The Light Amplification by Stimulated Emmisions of Radiation will be visible through physically based materils in the air.

However, it seems you got a bit offended, that the 63nm Green Visible-Beam laser is inherently visible in any common physical environment, and you stated that clearly, in your description and image; However, the Visible-Beam lasers are at a different Frequency so to allow the Beam to radiate throughout any atmospheric events (in normal conditions) and even in intense sunlight, etc.

And in the end, Coop would benefit greatly from this feature, now that i digest the complexity more, but PVP, it would break a META that isn't broken, ad would result in SPAM, i'm afriad. Hopefully, since there is more "Core elements" that have issues, i think this would be a job for a modifcation artist to take-on and let their talent shine ๐Ÿ˜‰

@reason3d I deal with light and human vision professionally - and about half of that made no sense whatsoever.

There are two things going on here:

The human eye is most sensitive to green and green-yellow light. That is because the three different types of color sensitive cones in our eyes are all sensitive to it, placing that portion of the spectrum in the center of the photopic response curve.

In lasers, color is tied to energy. Red lasers are the least energetic, with green more energetic than red and then blue more energetic still. The more energetic the laser the brighter any particulates caught in the beam will illuminate, and the more pronounced Rayleigh scattering by the atmosphere will be. Energy alone is part of the reason green lasers are more visible than red ones.

But that doesn't mean green is always better. Lasers work both ways. A red laser can be advantageous as its beam is less likely to be visible, and if the shooter can see the dot without the enemy being able to see the beam it's advantageous to the shooter.

There is a keybind to toggle the laser on and off. It's not nearly as intuitive as a pressure tape on a rifle to toggle it on only when aiming, but it can be done. A momentary-on keybind would be nicer for this perhaps.

@maa_bunny said in Suggestion : Replace the red laser by green laser + add laser beam in smoky / foggy conditions:

@reason3d I deal with light and human vision professionally - and about half of that made no sense whatsoever.

There are two things going on here:

The human eye is most sensitive to green and green-yellow light. That is because the three different types of color sensitive cones in our eyes are all sensitive to it, placing that portion of the spectrum in the center of the photopic response curve.

In lasers, color is tied to energy. Red lasers are the least energetic, with green more energetic than red and then blue more energetic still. The more energetic the laser the brighter any particulates caught in the beam will illuminate, and the more pronounced Rayleigh scattering by the atmosphere will be. Energy alone is part of the reason green lasers are more visible than red ones.

But that doesn't mean green is always better. Lasers work both ways. A red laser can be advantageous as its beam is less likely to be visible, and if the shooter can see the dot without the enemy being able to see the beam it's advantageous to the shooter.

There is a keybind to toggle the laser on and off. It's not nearly as intuitive as a pressure tape on a rifle to toggle it on only when aiming, but it can be done. A momentary-on keybind would be nicer for this perhaps.

"Green is in the Center of the Perceived Color Spectrum and Human Eye's Interpret this as the most compatible color for physiological adherence" Green is the most Human-Friendly color in the universe, i would suggest a refund on your educational institution, and possibly seek an position in a profession where you fit.

Red is the most Provocative color the Human and many animals detect... What color do Matadors use on their "Dummy-flags?" RED... yes red lasers are technically less visible in most circumstances, but it is the source of the output, not the color of it, that is the issue.

While energy is a factor in LASER(S), the wavelength dictates the color, so by all means, keep babbling, and my previous suggestion is somewaht valid, i just pray you don't work in Radiology ๐Ÿ˜•

@reason3d said in Suggestion : Replace the red laser by green laser + add laser beam in smoky / foggy conditions:

"Green is in the Center of the Perceived Color Spectrum and Human Eye's Interpret this as the most compatible color for physiological adherence" Green is the most Human-Friendly color in the universe

That's more-or-less what I said, minus the Random Capitalization and touchy-feely phrasing.

Red is the most Provocative color the Human and many animals detect... What color do Matadors use on their "Dummy-flags?" RED.

That's subjective, not all humans see red as "provocative" and I've no idea how you classify emotional response in animals we can't communicate with. Bulls can't even see the color red, it has nothing to do with why they charge ...

While energy is a factor in LASER(S), the wavelength dictates the color

And wavelength is proportional to frequency, and frequency is directly related to energy. Higher frequency radiation is higher energy radiation. Hence why black body radiation moves from red to blue, then on to microwave as temperature increases.

Wow, your scientific explanation of laser emissions and effects bashed me to defeat and surrender.
Now you really sound like a scientist who has in depth knowledge about lasers and who is trying to share some parts of your overwhelming nerd knowledge to us regular people.
I must confess that i really have much lesser knowledge about these things than you.
You won the battle !

By the way i never said that my profession is in the science branch. ๐Ÿ˜‰

Now shut up and implement bright , green laser dots and beams that are only visible in smoky conditions in a mod or let someone else do it who is able to do it.

last edited by GSG_9_LIGHTNING

Munching on popcorn

๐Ÿ˜ฒ

MMA-Bunny" I deal with light and human vision professionally - and about half of that made no sense whatsoever.
LOL - This was bait; i was drunk, and you got my PhishPhood ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

Reason3D: ""Green is in the Center of the Perceived Color Spectrum and Human Eye's Interpret this as the most compatible color for physiological adherence" Green is the most Human-Friendly color in the universe"

MMA-Bunny - "That's more-or-less what I said, minus the Random Capitalization and touchy-feely phrasing." ... How so? you used geek-teminology for color-cones and photoptic curve, and while i can respect that it's true, you threw out my input altogether.

MMA-Bunny: "That's subjective, not all humans see red as "provocative" and I've no idea how you classify emotional response in animals we can't communicate with. Bulls can't even see the color red, it has nothing to do with why they charge ..."
The majority of Humans see Red as Provocative... Bulls have many reasons to chatge, but how would we know? We can't communicate with them ROFL...

And wavelength is proportional to frequency, and frequency is directly related to energy. Higher frequency radiation is higher energy radiation. Hence why black body radiation moves from red to blue, then on to microwave as temperature increases.

never hurts to have more input, i don't get your beef man... you straight out accuse me of dribbling, then circle back and condescendingly "correct" me by stating my quotes in paraphrases.