ADS Speed & Hipfire Recoil

I've been thinking about this for awhile but I'm a huge procrasinator so I never really posted anything about it, just briefly discussed it a few times on various discords. But on the upside, it gave me some extra time to organize my thoughts a little better.

ADS speed is too slow.
I don't want to compare everything to Source, but one thing that felt "right" is that if you were caught off guard by a threat, you had a decent chance of bringing up your sights and returning accurate fire. Even with the 1 hit kill AP meta, you still felt like you at least had a chance against someone taking a more defensive position. You still usually died, but you at least felt like your death was your fault because you had the opportunity to shoot them, you just simply missed. But in Sandstorm, it feels like you're not only fighting the other player but also the game itself - especially considering how many angles you are open to when traversing the maps. There's a million places to hide, but only so many places to move through. Being able to respond better after taking fire or spotting someone would be a welcome change in this regard.

Hipfire and ADS recoil should be the same.
Or at least, dialed back to where it's really really close. Again I don't want to compare everything to Source because this is its own game and should be judged on its own merits, but this is another mechanic that Source got right, imo.

I agree that hipfire might have been a little "much" in Source, but I think that was more due to the AP meta making most weapons a 1 hit kill than it was hipfire being flawed in some way. In Sandstorm, all of the assault rifles and even the SCAR require 2 hits to kill in CQB range... so right now hipfire feels like a really nerfed mechanic since you not only have to manage to land a hit against someone who is probably already ADS'd, but you also have to adjust for the big recoil penalty and land a second shot.


I think one of these mechanics would be fine on their own, but when they're combined... it feels like you can't accurately hipfire but you also can't ADS in time - which doesn't exactly leave players many options, other than to not push or be aggressive.

I understand that the goal may have been to promote more tactical gameplay, but the current implementation seems to punish movement & aggressiveness too much. A defensive player already has the benefit of being harder to see, able to hear someone coming, and being prepared with their sights already up... but a moving player doesn't really have much of anything going in their favor.

I don't think drastic changes should be made, but maybe adjusting one of these over time can make everyone happy.

last edited by prevent

I agree wholeheartedly with these opinions

@prevent Ayy! I've been wanting to make a thread similar to this.

ADS Speed:

Honestly, the ADS speed in and of itself isn't really the issue, I don't think. At least, the base ADS speed. Overall player weight factors into ADS time as well, which I think is incredibly stupid. ADS speed gets slowed down by quite a bit at maxed weight.

Ins2014's ADS speed is actually far slower than Sandstorm's base ADS speed. However, in Ins2014 you typically brought up the front sight first, and then the rear, so while ADSing you could line up a pretty accurate shot. In Sandstorm, you line up both at the same time, which might be why it feels "off".

Also, with weight factored in, ADS time in Sandstorm becomes closer to ADS speed in Ins2014, so players running around with no gear and only a primary have the edge on players with full gear. Now, in theory, this is balanced by armor protecting players from the first shot, countering the speed advantage of the player with no extra gear.

The problem is that armor does virtually nothing. Heavy Armor does what Light Armor should do (with a little extra protection) and Light Armor is good if you want to spend a supply point to increase your weight by 15% without any benefits. Also, even equipping a Light Carrier with any primary and secondary weapon substantially increases your weight; even though the carrier itself only weighs 10%, the mags weigh an additional 20-30% weight in my experience. So if you're at max weight and defending, but you aren't constantly holding your sights up, the first rusher with no armor or ammo rig is going to annihilate you.

This weird-as-hell weight-ADS system seems to mostly favor Competitive play, with fast and precise movement and ADS speeds, but really fucks up the rest of the core gameplay in the other modes IMO.

One more thing: More weight also means you have less recoil. However, when I tested it (which was ages ago, I'll admit) maxed weight gave maybe a 15% recoil reduction, which in no way makes up for a halved ADS speed.

Hipfire Vs ADS Recoil:

Abso-fucking-lutely. Hipfire recoil makes no sense at all at the moment. Even a super-controllable MP5 (and I've used this metaphor a lot now) jumps around more than a three-year-old at a bounce house. Yet other guns like the new LMGs actually seem to work better hipfired than they should.

Also, I feel like the hipfire is somehow different from Source, almost like the cone where you can move your gun around in freeaim is larger than Source, or maybe the gun moves around in freeaim faster than Source. Something feels strange.

Hipfire is a 100% tactical thing. It makes sense at close range where you lack the time to ADS for a more accurate shot. Having to ADS 24/7 is dumb. Hipfire at the moment makes sense only for the SVD, bolt-action rifles, and anything else that kills in one shot, because simply put, you aren't hitting a second one.

Light & Heavy Armor:

You didn't mention this, but I feel that it's still related to the problem.

Armor in Sandstorm is actually less effective than armor in Insurgency: Source, and that's saying something. Specifically, Light Armor, at point-blank range, can save you from a Tariq, Hi-Power, and G3A3 (for some reason). No effect on anything else.

Heavy armor additionally (in CQB) stops a shot of an L10A6A1/PF940/M9, FAL, M14 EBR, Uzi, MP5A5, and MP5A2. So Heavy Armor can stop lethal shots from only eleven guns in Sandstorm, with the 40+ guns now in the game. Helps against explosives, too, but it seems marginal to be honest, and still not worth 30% weight and 3 supply.

No Armor Meta:

I've said it once and I'll say it again: Every weapon in Insurgency: Source (without mods, i.e. AP ammo) could kill a player wearing no armor with a single shot, even the Makarov. 9mm weapons would need to hit upper chest, but otherwise, this statement holds true.

In Sandstorm, there are only eleven guns capable of killing a player at full HP with no armor, out of the 40+ in-game now; the G3A3, FAL, M14 EBR, PKM, MG3, M240B, M24, SVD, Mosin, TOZ, and M590. Every other gun requires a second (or third) shot.

-> The only gun on this list that is stopped by Light Armor is the G3A3.
-> Heavy Armor still won't stop you from dying from 6-8 of those weapons in one shot, depending on how shotguns are factored in.

Ice Skating @ High Weight:

Not as bad as before, but still an issue IMO. Mikee even stated himself in the Sandstorm Gameplay Overview Trailer that "...Sandstorm is definitely a hardcore military game, but still recognizes the value of fluid movement". Let me tell ya; at a high weight, your movement is anything but fluid. It feels like I'm back to playing PUBG again with how much I'll slide around just trying to get through a doorway or window with maxed weight. The whole "inertia" system is poorly implemented and needs to be reworked entirely.

My suggestion is this; allow players to make turns on a dime regardless of weight. How much weight you're carryng becomes a factor into how much speed you lose when making sharp turns. Light players can recover faster from sharp turns, while heavyweight players need more time to get up to recover from turning corners, but can still make sharp turns.

Insurgency was built around responsiveness; giving the player full control of his or her character. Anything that makes the player feel like they aren't fully in control of their own character is a sin, in my opinion, and accelerative movement and turning removes the player's ability to make precise turns, right when they want to. I'm tired of running into doorways or sliding past windows and failing to get through them as a result.

On second thought, maybe I shouldn't mention the CTA lol.

Think that's all I wanted to cover. Jesus, this rant was long as hell LMAO.

TL;DR Make Sandstorm much more like Insurgency: Source, because that game had very few flaws at its core. Really, the only imbalanced thing with Ins2014 is AP and HP ammo.

last edited by MarksmanMax

Personal Opinion:

ADS Speed- It is too slow in transitions. Sprinting, standing up from prone, going prone, any mantle situation, switching weapons. These all feel sluggish. I would say that the ADS speed is not bad from walking or stationary, though it could be increased slightly and I would not complain. My gripe is that there are so many times when I can't even begin to ADS because the enemy appeared while I started to sprint, or started to mantle, or just pulled out a flash. Obviously I should be at a disadvantage in these situations, but it really feels the the enemy has time to shoot me 10-20 times before I could get my gun up. In source I felt helpless a lot less.

Hipfire- Give me whatever meds you are taking. Hipfire is way stronger in Sandstorm than it ever was in source. Most weapons with a foregrip have very little vertical hipfire recoil, even the battle rifles. the horizontal recoil is still noticeable, but it allows you to just spray a room without ADSing. I don't think it needs to be buffed at all. I come from competitive in both source and SS, and I know that hipfire was unused in source but is now occasionally seen. In pubs I see many players hipfiring, when in source those same players would be aiming at the sky after 2 shots. Hipfire was never meant to be a "good" strategy, which is part of what makes INS unique to most other shooters. I don't see how you think it needs a buff in Sandstorm.

@muzzle said in ADS Speed & Hipfire Recoil:

Personal Opinion:
Hipfire- Give me whatever meds you are taking. Hipfire is way stronger in Sandstorm than it ever was in source.

By default, the weapon positions in Insurgency: Source are kinda off. That makes hipfire a real bitch to even attempt as weapon positioning is somewhat strange, so you can't really predict where the gun will actually fire.

However, if you have a Workshop mod that changes how weapons are viewed (i.e. makes it more realistic) hipfire becomes insanely easy to do (i.e. more like how weapons look in Sandstorm).

Another thing with the damage model is the damage to limbs. In Ins2014, arm shots, in particular, were extremely lethal and almost always resulted in a one-hit kill. Leg shots weren't as potent but were still effective.

In Sandstorm, shots to limbs mostly do vastly-reduced damage. Upper leg shots seem to basically count as a torso shot, but below the knee or anywhere in the arm and the damage drops quite a bit. If you're only shooting someone's hand or foot, get ready to fire 5-7 shots to kill them. Now, there is limb penetration, so the bullet hits your torso as well to deal more damage than just hitting your hand for instance, but damage still seems reduced overall.

PLAYERUNKNOWN'S BATTLEGROUNDS might've actually had the right idea when approaching this "Wonder-Woman" bullet blocking problem (one of the only smart things they've done lmao). The solution was pretty simple; if you were shot in the arm/leg, but the bullet would have hit your torso or head had your arm/leg not been in the way, then the bullet deals damage to your torso or head, respectively. It's not as realistic, but it is a cleaner solution IMO.

@muzzle said in ADS Speed & Hipfire Recoil:

Hipfire- Give me whatever meds you are taking. Hipfire is way stronger in Sandstorm than it ever was in source. Most weapons with a foregrip have very little vertical hipfire recoil, even the battle rifles. the horizontal recoil is still noticeable, but it allows you to just spray a room without ADSing. I don't think it needs to be buffed at all. I come from competitive in both source and SS, and I know that hipfire was unused in source but is now occasionally seen. In pubs I see many players hipfiring, when in source those same players would be aiming at the sky after 2 shots. Hipfire was never meant to be a "good" strategy, which is part of what makes INS unique to most other shooters. I don't see how you think it needs a buff in Sandstorm.

I also played competitive in Source, where I used hipfire a ton going back to DGL Season 2.

Like we talked about on discord, I think maybe our experiences vary due to the weapons we hipfire with. I usually did it with the semi auto weapons like M16 and M1A1 Carbine, while it sounds like you do it more with automatic weapons.

In Sandstorm it feels like hipfire is viable with automatic weapons, probably because if you're firing in automatic, you're going to probably hit someone with 2 shots regardless of whether the recoil has been increased or not. We can pull down and the spray is more likely to hit them after a certain point.

But with semi auto weapons like the M16, it's much more difficult to land a shot then immediately follow it up with another when the hipfire recoil has been increased.

One could say that maybe players shouldn't hipfire with semi weapons, and maybe that's a valid view to have — but at the same time when ADS speed is so slow, there isn't really another option.

Hipfire- Give me whatever meds you are taking. Hipfire is way stronger in Sandstorm than it ever was in source. Most weapons with a foregrip have very little vertical hipfire recoil, even the battle rifles. the horizontal recoil is still noticeable, but it allows you to just spray a room without ADSing. I don't think it needs to be buffed at all. I come from competitive in both source and SS, and I know that hipfire was unused in source but is now occasionally seen. In pubs I see many players hipfiring, when in source those same players would be aiming at the sky after 2 shots. Hipfire was never meant to be a "good" strategy, which is part of what makes INS unique to most other shooters. I don't see how you think it needs a buff in Sandstorm.

I would have to say my experiences with hipfiring have been actually quite successful in INS 2014 and DoI, while Sandstorm most definitively increased the uncontrollability of hipfire. In 2014/DoI when the hipfire recoil was more akin to ADS recoil you could successfully pull off several kills by learning how to use the free-aim system, I got pretty decent at it. So I just think with some of the changes made to Sandstorm that favor the defenders more (more recoil, more sway, more open maps, more angles), on top of other, more neutral changes (longer ttk, armor being more effective, no AP) additional hipfire recoil seems a bit much.

I also wonder if it's possible that it's not purely additional hipfire recoil but also a bigger "dead aim zone" compared to Source.

There's alot of variables at play so it's hard to tell exactly what it could be, or exactly what could be adjusted. Like @MarksmanMax brought up, it might not even be either... and just the animation itself.

Or maybe a combination of everything.

last edited by prevent

@prevent

I definitely do think it’s something with the ADS that needs tweaking. I’ve mentioned it in my video and numerous times here that the ADS doesn’t always feel smooth.

Sometimes it does feel spot-on. Currently the weapon that feels really close to Source is the new MP5’s and it almost feels like cheating because of how responsive the ADS seems to be or how it feels compared to the rifles I tend to use (M4A1 / AK74).

Even pistols at times don’t snap like the MP5 does or appear to do. The recoil is also a lot more manageable but I’m trying to talk specifically about first-shot ADS and not spray-mechanics.

It feels at times that my character is wobbling into place with the current ADS system. If I can know when that wobble occurs or why, I can then decide whether to engage with hip-fire right-away, or use my ADS the way I’ve learned to do so in Source. At least then I can train mysef to react the way the game wants me to, rather than feel like I have to fight the game in random moments.

I don’t really want to buff hipfire in any way, and would much prefer the game to act more similar to Source but not 1:1. Sandstorm should be more difficult but for good reason. Horizontal recoil, weighted characters, sliding mechanic being nerfed, no more AP. All these changes help make the game play unique.
Having a vault system is good! But it’s a little slow to rely on. Added recoil system is good! But the ADS isn’t as responsive at times and therefore makes it too difficult return fire with a few shots, accurately.

@prevent Hey, @Leopardi on the Technical side might've found the root cause for the problem that you've been having with hipfire (apart from the extra recoil, of course):
https://forums.focus-home.com/topic/35629/mouse-sensitivity-drops-in-the-middle-of-the-freeaim-box

It's like your mouse sens. almost drops in the center of your screen, but your weapon still moves at the same pace. Since your screen randomly slows down when turning, you can't really predict when to actually fire your weapon.

EDIT: Actually, this just means that your weapon freeaim sensitivity is technically way higher than it should be.

last edited by MarksmanMax

Here's an example of the "wobble" effect I keep feeling. In this clip in particular, it seems shooting during the ADS animation makes the gun jump a lot and it's super hard to bring back down in time to get the next shot on target.

I know it's intentional, but it's very punishing. The way the ADS smooths upward during the animation is very sluggish to bring back down. It doesn't feel like your typical recoil compensation.

It feels more like your gun is going to aim high and there's nothing you can do about it.

I slowed it down to get the best possible perspective.

GIF:
https://gph.is/g/4AgO80a

Video:
Youtube Video

last edited by Mr. Rain

Looks absolute normal to me.
7,62 x 39 mm Ammo for Kalashnikov has some serious recoil and bigger calibers have more recoil.

I propose to go on the closest shooting range in your city and try some real weapons to have better comparison.
I know this is a game but somehow it wants to be realistic in some parts.

@gsg_9_lightning

I understand that, but when I pull down my gun during the ADS animation, it doesn’t feel like I’m pulling it down. It feels more forced than if I was actually drawing the gun down. Like the game’s saying ‘no you’re not gonna be able to adjust recoil until the ADS animation is done’.

I can time my shots so I don’t shoot during animation, but that leaves me open.

It’s a sort of issue that doesn’t occur in Source and it feels a lot smoother than here. Again not saying it has to be 1:1 with Source but for a game that has a lot of CQC, gunplay should feel as clean as possible. Not overly arcade-like but also not milsim.

So as Prevent is suggesting, either something would need to be done with hipfire recoil/spread being more reliable, or ADS needs to be more responsive.

last edited by Mr. Rain

@mr-rain Source definitely has the gunplay down, and at the moment Sandstorm doesn't feel like Source at all.

Again, not saying Sandstorm should 100% mimic Source, but it should at least be close.

@mr-rain Sorry my dude but in the video you clearly ADS high and right which is why your first shot was off, them you compensated too much took it high left and pulled down to low left. None of those shots would have hit and nor should they. It was reactionary aiming and sadly, this time you missed... Picture here shows where you started to ADS. 0_1551930061230_wewewew.jpg

@plppln

If I could show you how I was directing my mouse I would. The ADS lifted my aim even though I was dragging my mouse forward to aim down. So, the ADS should be near center since I was already compensating, but instead, it went high.

The animation + recoil kicked my aim high, but even though I know how to compensate for recoil, it was like the game was refusing my mouse input until after the ADS animation was completed.

Also, how can I ADS high and right when it’s supposed to ADS center screen?

last edited by Mr. Rain

I don't want to open a new thread about this, but I feel like some guns ADS, especialy when the bipod is deployed is way too fast.
I was Marksmen class with the M24 with the bipod deployed and it was literally instantly aiming down the scope. Now that's quite unrealistic. You need time to align your eyes with the scope, it's not instant.

@sgt-kanyo said in ADS Speed & Hipfire Recoil:

I don't want to open a new thread about this, but I feel like some guns ADS, especialy when the bipod is deployed is way too fast.
I was Marksmen class with the M24 with the bipod deployed and it was literally instantly aiming down the scope. Now that's quite unrealistic. You need time to align your eyes with the scope, it's not instant.

Part of that is definitely the fact that it's bipoded. Personally, I like bipods speeding up ADS as it helps give bipods an actual purpose.

Weight also affects how fast ADS is, with lower weight players having faster ADS than higher weight players. IMO, this is completely stupid.

Recoil seems to be fine to me .. easy to manage, with exception of LMGs where it is clearly game ballance thing .. having 1 shot kill 100 rounded low recoil LMG would be bit OP ..
Hipfire is again matter of ballance .. you can accurately shoot it pretty easily untill you start spraying .. so it works perfectly in cases where you jump into somebody behind corner on indoor but you can run&gun around with it ... also gives laser pointer reason to exist